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 Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?

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George Sand
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSun Mar 20, 2016 11:24 pm

a1, surely you mean thousands of? wink
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seversatwork
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seversatwork

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 23, 2016 3:38 pm

A couple of pages ago, there was a post or two about logical fallacies.

Here we have another... the question of whether it is AGW and what to do about it/can we do anything about it has been boiled to a false dichotomy: It's chinese fission plants or wind turbines.

And that's quite apart from the ludicrous over-generalisation of "I have seen the turbines at Redcar not turning sometimes therefore wind energy is a dead end"

The options available to undo the damage being done are not simply "ignore it and burn coal" "rush for nukes" and "14th century bows and arrows".

After years of listening to people tell me that sustainables cannot, cannot, cannot work, I read the latest data from Germany (a country that bothered to push ahead with renewables because they have poor fossil fuel resources) suggesting that their dash for wind + solar is bearing fruit.

This is one of those "debates" (actually a bit like the abortion "debate" in that neither side will accept anything at all from the other, all anyone does is ignore everyone else's viewpoint, and maybe even staret mud-slinging) which is almost pointless to have. Does anyone in here give a stuff what anyone else thinks?
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auguste1
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 23, 2016 7:10 pm

Of COURSE we give a stuff what other people think Severs. But there would be little point in the topic if all we were discussing was the different types of windmill.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 30, 2016 11:30 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hmmm? thinking
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seversatwork
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seversatwork

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 02, 2016 8:00 am

I note that this argument proposes the classic false dichotomy, by suggesting that the options are only to plough on as at present or to change completely to renewables, with no other possibility.

It then attacks the latter option, as if that completes the debate.

In addition, we are called upon to observe that "some greens" are questioning the 100% renewable option, a classic "appeal to authority" fallacy. What "some greens" think is irrelevant; the evidence that they might be looking at IS relevant, and that is what should be forwarded.

One of the offered experts is the top figure in the Oz nuclear industry. Are we supposed to imagine that he is an unbiased source of information about renewables? You might as well ask the president of a car tyre manufacturer about advances in electric bicycle technology.

I wish people would frame their information without the politics, without the logical fallacies of poor debate and preferably without the opinion of people with a strongly vested financial interest.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 02, 2016 8:55 am

And people as biased as you? wink
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seversatwork
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 02, 2016 9:40 am

I'm biased?

If I am biased, tell me exactly what balance of energy generation infrastructure I have proposed. If I am biased, I must have stated this in order to use my so-called bias to promote or justify the proposal.

I put it to you that I am actually open-minded and willing to listen to evidence without bias (although, as I stated before, I have observed that most participants in debates like this are not).

However, it is evidence that swings a debate about future infrastructure planning, not fallacies.

Fallacies such as arbitrarily categorising people as (for example) "greenies" and then arranging to characterise the category as being inferior, or discredit the group and by implication, the person's viewpoint even when they do not claim membership of the arbitrarily constructed group.

I do not claim to represent or participate in any arbitrary "greeny" group, nor any other politically or financially motivated viewpoint collective. Have you shoved me in with one without good reason?

There is, of course, another logical fallacy of argument, the "ad hominem attack". That is where you attempt to discredit a person, instead of their point of view. Having degraded them, you then imply that whatever their argument is, must be invalid, without having actually demonstrated it so.

That smiley you tacked on does not obviate your accusation. Calling me biased doesn't mean that my requirement for real evidence is an invalid viewpoint.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 02, 2016 3:41 pm

Well, you do come over as totally with the anthropogenic group....
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seversatwork
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 02, 2016 4:00 pm

So, holding an opinion is the same as being biased? Even if the opinion is open to being updated in the light of evidence?

Would you have it that the only people who earn the right to be called "not biased" are people who have no opinion?

Do you have an opinion? Are "with" a group? For example, a hypothetical "non-anthropogenic group"? Does that make you biased?


In other questions, where is the post that I made that identifies me as being "with" those who see global warming as anthropogenic, as opposed to merely being an interested spectator trying to understand the situation and listening to the scientists and what-have-you hold forth with data, models and conclusions?

When all else is said and done, I am a bit sick of being lumped in with arbitrary groups with a simultaneous insinuation that there is some sort of hive mind, membership, politically driven agenda extant within the alleged group. People make far too many stereotyped generalisations.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 02, 2016 4:22 pm

Yes, I am biased toward the non-anthropogenic group; I do not believe there is no global warming, just the false science that is the same as that which warned us of a bitter ice-age by the millennium. Scientists were saying that we would be FREEZING due to mankind but now we are going to ROAST!  Yet there was much more man-made gas around then. We had just got rid of steam locos and coal fires.....

From the not very great amount of reading I do on the subject, to me it's history repeating itself, scientists trying to justify their existence.
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 12:01 am

"Yet there was much more man-made gas around then. We had just got rid of steam locos and coal fires....."

Ok, let me get this straight. You are claiming that CO2 concentration isn't increasing?

There's a famous and very apposite quote which goes something like "everyone is entitled to their own opinion but no one is entitled to their own facts".
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 10:34 am

I'm claiming nothing except that I don't believe it's anthropogenic.

Not an opinion; a belief. sigh
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 12:57 pm

If you are not claiming anything then what was the point you were trying to make? Are you saying that you don't believe increasing CO2 concentration is anthropogenic?
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm

Mother nature will do as she pleases. If you think you can change that, go ahead.
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 4:12 pm

??

I simply asked you to explain what you meant by this:

FF wrote:
Yet there was much more man-made gas around then. We had just got rid of steam locos and coal fires.....

I don't understand why you are so evasive.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 4:54 pm

I think my English is clear enough.
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 6:26 pm

Let's see.

FF wrote:
Yet there was much more man-made gas around then.

For a start, man-made gas is ambiguous (i.e. not clear) but given the thread, I'll assume we are talking about CO2.

I initially read this as meaning that you didn't believe that CO2 concentration was increasing. You then said:

FF wrote:
I'm claiming nothing except that I don't believe it's anthropogenic.

What does the it refer to here?  This is also ambiguous. Are you referring to the general question posed in the thread or are you referring to the particular question of why CO2 is increasing?

Given that you consider that what you wrote is clear, the reasonable interpretation - given that specifically mentioned 'man-made gas' - is that you think CO2 concentration is increasing but you don't think it is anthropogenic.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 8:11 pm

That's it , I give up! sigh

I've stated my beliefs about anthropogeny, I don't have to trawl through Google to justify my reasoning to you. sad
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 9:05 pm

I'm not asking you to trawl through Google; I was simply asking you to clarify a specific point you seemed to be trying to make. If you aren't capable of doing that then fine - we'll leave it there.

If anyone else has any ideas about what FF meant about man-made gases, I'd be interested to hear.
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slicer
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2016 11:41 pm

Quote :
I don't have to trawl through Google to justify my reasoning to you.

Looks like you're going to have to if you want to win the debate.

(In other words, throw the shovel away FF laugh )
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GGSS
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 30, 2016 2:42 pm

I've just watched this:-
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There are more on the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] site so I might watch them later.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 30, 2016 4:30 pm

Prefer this:-

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSun May 01, 2016 11:08 am

FF, yhat old film is complete non-scientific nonsense and has been thoroughly debunked. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is one fairly succinct summary of what is wrong with it.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeSun May 01, 2016 12:43 pm

Methinks the title of this thread should be changed to global freezing!
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitimeMon Aug 29, 2016 2:15 pm

Be afraid, be VERY afraid:-

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 27 Icon_minitime

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