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 Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?

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pen5
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Almack
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Peter Goodwin
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Peter Goodwin
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Peter Goodwin

Posts : 1614
Join date : 2009-06-10
Location : Bristol

Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 12:28 am

N (z x cc x M) = CCS
where
z= number of cars in household
cc = fuel consumption of largest car
M = gross annual mileage, and
CCS = propensity to Climate Change Scepticism.

Discuss.
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auguste1
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auguste1

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 12:33 am

Green levies are not there to encourage but to punish which is why UK is losing 20% of it's generating capacity in the next 5 yrs. We are closing coal fired stations on ecological grounds and taking up to 5 yrs to convert them to wood burners. This wood will have to be shipped across the Atlantic from Canada. Now that's what you call a sensible use of the Earth's resources. The power stations will emit more smoke, operate less efficiently and would you believe it , cost more. In the mean time China , India and Brazil are opening one coal fired power station every week.
Heavy Industry will also be decimated by these " green " fines and some have already made arrangements to transfer operations to third world countries.
All we are doing is depriving this country of jobs and opportunities and transferring the pollution elsewhere. In fact the pollution will be greater because of seriously lax laws in third world countries desperate for inward investment.
Utopia does not , never has and never will exist and the sooner tree huggers realise this the better.
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ff
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Posts : 3350
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Location : Cleveland

Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 8:37 am

Whichever stance you take, it's always about greed!
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glide
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 9:41 am

Maybe these guys are onto something?

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Wasn't the NCB about 20 years ahead of everybody in the search for clean coal in the 80's??
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Peter Goodwin
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Peter Goodwin

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 12:54 pm

Looks good. There seem to be a lot of emerging technologies that support 'in vessel' closed combustion, especially in the field of waste treatment. In the UK, though, CCS seems to be going nowhere much - just vague proposals for very expensive end-of-pipe solutions.
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nickymb
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nickymb

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 2:40 pm

Peter

Just what I expected as a answer from you, jolly good nothings changed with your ideas then.

As I work in the Industry for a Global company I can see very clearly what is happening and we are being conned to pay extra green taxes (both individually by additional levies on energy bills and corporate by emission taxes on heavy Industry). Other countries who we compete against do not have this - we are losing jobs because of it, its happening right where I am at present so no amount of excuses please. This is not a level playing field and until it is we should stop closing down any Industry in the UK because of these idiotic ideals before its too late.
You really need to be here at the sharp end to see whats happening and its not looking good.
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ff
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Location : Cleveland

Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 01, 2013 4:16 pm

Nickymb, I believe we are the only country in the world kow-towing to the fatuous green agenda.sigh 
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GGSS
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 02, 2013 11:25 am

The leaked final draft from the IPCC - due to be released next March...

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Peter Goodwin
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Peter Goodwin

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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 04, 2013 11:10 pm

This suggests that it won't be the UK that leads the world in CCS:
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I can't help thinking that the Energy Minister, like the Chancellor, doesn't think it's important.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 05, 2013 9:29 am

Quote :
produce huge amounts of greenhouse gas such as CO2, which contribute towards global warming.
Trust the Biased Broadcasting Corporation to blithely state that as a given! wagfinger

Quote :
I can't help thinking that the Energy Minister, like the Chancellor, doesn't think it's important.


Good!!!
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GGSS
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 06, 2013 11:21 am

Greenhouse gases reach record levels...
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 06, 2013 2:02 pm

So all our extra 'green' taxes have been stolen in vain? And we installed a 'condensing boiler' at great cost that lights up every time you turn the hot tap on. How the hell does that not contribute to CO2?

My old Glow-worm only lit up half-a-dozen times a day, thanks to it's well insulated hot water storage tank!

I wonder how they measured atmospheric levels of CO2 in 1750?thinking 
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Spog
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Spog

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 12:02 am

Quote :
And we installed a 'condensing boiler' at great cost that lights up every time you turn the hot tap on. How the hell does that not contribute to CO2?

My old Glow-worm only lit up half-a-dozen times a day, thanks to it's well insulated hot water storage tank!
It sounds like you no longer have a hot water tank, so you most likely have a combi boiler. These heat the water on demand (hence lighting up every time you turn the hot tap on) so they only heat the water that you actually use. That could be more efficient than heating a tankful that you won't use but I expect that the efficiency of combi vs non-combi depends on your pattern of usage of hot water. Note that virtually all modern boilers are condensing boilers, which are more efficient than non-condensing boilers, BUT not all condensing boilers are combi boilers. If you had wanted to replace your old boiler with a modern condensing boiler and retain your hot water tank, you could have had a non-combi boiler installed. It's possible that your installer didn't explain it to you well enough for you to make an informed decision.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:28 am

I was a mug, taken in by the government's global warming scares several years ago. The boiler is a top of the range Worcester -Bosch and has had so many repairs in the 5 years we've had it, I could have bought a decent one! Thank God I took out a maintenance policy that covers everything for a small monthly payment. The old Glow-worm, bought second hand in 1984, cost me only a sensor and it's annual service in the 24 years we had it!

The main problem is the length of time you have to wait to get reasonably hot water to the tap, whereas when we had the tank it was almost instant.
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Almack
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Almack

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:47 am

Generally a conventional heating system is not "heating a tankful". It heats the top half of the cylinder and there is some preheating of the cold feed at the base of the tank by convection.

If you have solar hot water, (I have - and generally accepted as being best bang for your buck), you have to have a tank to store it as solar does not heat on demand. Even today in winter sun, it will preheat the tankful a few degrees and that's worth it
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 3:40 pm

I never mentioned having a tankful, just that the hot water was very quick to arrive at the tap.
The bottom of our old cistern was always nice and warm under it's thick jacket, but you daren't touch the top!
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Almack
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Almack

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 5:22 pm

Spog did
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Spog
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Spog

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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:36 pm

Almack, fair enough about it not actually being a tankful but isn't there still the possibility that you are heating up more water than you will use before it cools down? I take your point about the solar though - you're going to be ahead anyway because of that. Also, as I said, it probably depends on how you use hot water. I wouldn't be surprised if a conventional system could be more efficient in many scenarios as there's probably a cost to frequent stopping and starting of a combi boiler.

To be honest, we didn't have a lot of choice about ours. Our old conventional boiler packed in in the middle of February and we needed something installing quickly. The old boiler just fitted into the space of a kitchen wall cupboard and that wasn't going to be a realistic option for a new one. The easiest way to sort it was to lose the hot water tank and install a combi boiler in the airing cupboard.

FF, I thought Worcestor-Bosch were supposed to be a decent make.  I'd have to recommend Vaillant based on my own experience. I don't know if yours has this, but our combi has the option to maintain a small store of heated water so that you get hot water more quickly. We don't have it switched on in ours as I don't find there's too much of a delay in practice. It's terrible at the in-laws' house though, so I do know how bad it can be.
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auguste1
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auguste1

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:55 pm

FF, the amount of CO2 in 1750 is calculated by looking at vegetation and core samples from the Antarctic ice. The calculations are quite simple and are carried out with great vigour by Enviromentalists. Unfortunately when the results don't follow the required pattern they have been misrepresented by several studies and now no one knows which are true results and which ones have been manipulated to fit into patterns. These supposedly serious scientists do not carry out serious science sometimes.
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Spog
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Spog

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 12:46 am

auguste1, Interesting. Which studies were these that misrepresented the data? There are recognised complications in processing ice core samples but there is sufficient correlation between different samples to be able to identify which features are due to contamination etc. As I understand it, the main uncertainty, with increasing depth, is temporal rather than the CO2 concentration iteself. i.e. the dating of the concentration becomes more inaccurate the further back you go (though still pretty impressive considering we are talking hundreds of thousands of years).

By the way, you can find web sites that make similar claims as yours except that they complain about carbon dating and the science of evolution. Real data, in any field, tends to be messy and involves complications. Appropriate techniques need to be applied that could be mischaracterised by the ignorant, or those seeking to mislead, as 'manipulation'.
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GGSS
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 17, 2013 10:30 pm

Guess what? Those clever scientist people forgot to measure the temperature in the Arctic...
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Spog
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Spog

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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 17, 2013 11:44 pm

It's possibly worth pointing out that the lack of coverage of the Arctic (and some other areas) in the HadCRUT data set is not the news here. People have been noting for years that that data set probably underestimates warming because it does not include Arctic data and we know from other sources that warming has been higher than average in the Arctic. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] from 2010 - see the section entitled "Cherry Pick #1").

The news is that work has been done at York University to attempt to fill in the missing data and to quantify the effect of the missing data by using a technique called kriging and by using satellite measurements.  A short video describes what has been done:

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GGSS
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 18, 2013 10:15 pm

That was interesting and informative Spog. Thank you for posting it. I read the 2010 discussion too.
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ff
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 20, 2013 10:52 am

A gem:-
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GOS is a good blog!
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glide
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 23, 2013 4:19 pm

Testimony of Dr. Don Easterbrook to
the Washington State Senate Energy, Environment and
Telecommunications Committee on the 26th of March 2013

He arrives 10:00 mins. in

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