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 Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?

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George Sand
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GGSS
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 29, 2013 7:16 pm

Good quote Glide.
The bees need some help.
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Spog
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 30, 2013 10:19 am

Glide,

I agree: that was a good quote.

Glide wrote:
Spog.. Just passing it on:smile:

Fair enough. I hope it was clear that it was the article I was criticising and not you. The problem is that there is a lot of this sort of stuff around on the internet and it can look very convincing to a casual reader.

Glide wrote:
Not a debate I've been involved in, I just read through it briefly and am totally unaware of the politics of the organisations concerned. I am aware that there's enormous amounts of money being generated, for both sides...so approach with caution I think.

To be honest, I'd rather not be involved myself but when I see blatant nonsense being peddled, it's difficult not to respond. Actually, I think we need to be careful about using words like 'debate' and 'sides' in this context. Much of the 'debate' has been manufactured precisely by the spreading of articles such as that one. It doesn't matter that they don't stand up to scrutiny. Casual readers will read them and move on, assuming that there is a lot more dispute about the science than there really is.  This is a tactic that has worked well in the past. It was developed by the tobacco industry and in fact you can trace a direct line from the people involved in spreading lies about the medical evidence about tobacco and the organisations involved spreading misinformation about modern climate science. Many of these connections are documented in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
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glide
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 30, 2013 12:34 pm

Quote :
I hope it was clear that it was the article I was criticising and not you.

Not for a moment Sprog.

The debate/sides issue is an interesting one. At the moment just as 'Fracking' becomes
(a) The real life saver for our energy needs, or a totally mad and destructive idea.

(b) Seemingly out of nowhere via the 'Usual Suspects' in MSM comes the scaringly hyped up report of a 4% - 2% only backup. The lights will go out all over the World. Total coincidence of course:smile:

My usual inclination is..... 'Follow the money


 
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Spog
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 01, 2013 12:43 am

Sorry Glide - I'm probably being dense but I don't follow what you are saying in (b). I think I'm missing the references. What's msm and what's this 4% - 2% business?
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glide
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 01, 2013 10:57 am

The fear figures for Gas reserves .. Current 4% going down to 2% ??? (I think, could be wrong though) by 2015... election year:smile: 

MSM... Main Stream Media. Just looking at the rack of newspapers in the shop a few days ago. It was the Mail and Telegraph who had a prominent above the fold story. The Usual Suspects !!




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Spog
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 01, 2013 12:35 pm

Ah, OK. Wasn't familiar with that TLA. Thanks cheers
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martythesparky
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 01, 2013 7:01 pm

Glide, could you explain what you mean by 'The fear figures for gas reserves.. Current 4% going down to 2% ???' please.
I don't understand, 4% to 2% of what? Thanks smile 
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glide
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 01, 2013 8:21 pm

Marty, fear figure was a sarcastic observation on the fact that when something so controversial as Fracking is being put forward and oppsition to it is building. Suddenly reports appear that without it the lights and everything else will fail, and we will be reduced to Third World status.
4%-2% National Grid Gas Storage. But, like I said this could be wrong...

Try here.

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martythesparky
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 7:38 am

Ahh righty, thanks I'll check it out later smile 
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Peter Goodwin
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeFri Jul 05, 2013 12:20 am

The temperature's rising - though no doubt it'll get the usual dismissive response, denial or just 'business as usual'.

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nickymb
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 08, 2013 4:51 pm

Peter

Its summer, and for the first time in years we have a some decent weather.
I dont associate that with global warming, I can remember some very hot summers as a kid and that was before this climate change crap started.
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Peter Goodwin
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 08, 2013 9:58 pm

nickymb:

I too remember what now seem like long sunny summer holidays.  

The reference study, though, is to a whole range of systematic global analyses - not to what you remember about wherever you happened to be.   I'm sorry if that's a bit inconvenient.
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martythesparky
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 08, 2013 10:36 pm

I'm glad global warming hadn't been invented when I was a kid, must be crap now a days when you're told that the couple of decent days a year that you can put your swimming cossie on and enjoy the beach is wrong as it's all because your parents were evil carbon junkies who never gave a f^*k about the planet and while your paddling in the sea the peoples of Middle Earth or Narnia are about to disappear just like Atlantis did because your Grandma and Grandad helped in the Industrial revolution wink 
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeWed Jul 10, 2013 5:24 pm

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martythesparky
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 11, 2013 7:44 am

Take a train ride on the East Coast main line, lots of the farmers fields you travel through are still like Asian rice paddys smile 
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glide
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 11, 2013 6:23 pm

Tthe developer of the giant Greater Gabbard offshore wind farm GGOWL finally resolved the long-running contractual dispute with engineering firm Fluor Ltd over concerns relating to the foundations of turbines. Out of 140 turbines, 52 – that’s 35% –"

Source.

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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 18, 2013 2:38 pm

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Spog
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 22, 2013 1:17 pm

^

From the article:

Quote :
Although STOR was devised in April 2007 and modified in December 2010, it has not been widely advertised by the Coalition.

STOR is just a new name for Standing Reserve which has always been an element of the National Grid's load balancing system.  It is a means of bringing extra supply on line quickly for a short period of time.  It is relatively expensive but is probably cheaper than having spinning reserve running.  It is not clear to me to what extent provision of STOR is related to wind power as generally the availability of wind is predictable over longer time scales than those which are relevant to STOR.

Based on a first glance, this article looks like the usual Dellingpole/Daily Mail pile of excrement.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Quote :
the availability of wind is predictable over longer time scales



Huh? thinking  
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Spog
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 22, 2013 4:51 pm

Although wind is intermittent, wind forecasts are pretty reliable over a period of a few hours, which should be enough time to allow spinning reserves to be brought on line. It is in the case where the forecasts (of supply or demand) are wrong that STOR is needed.

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auguste1
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 22, 2013 11:22 pm

Obviously the wind forecasters are not employed by the Met Office whose forecasts are only reliable for 10 minutes before any event. I have been looking at the forecasts recently and they change every
hour.
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ff
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeTue Jul 23, 2013 9:11 am

Yes, auguste1, I have the met. office widget and it's changed ideas every time I look at it!
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Peter Goodwin
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeWed Jul 24, 2013 12:05 am

The Centre for Alternative Technology at Machynlleth have just published '[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]' outlining how we could reduce emissions to zero (and without any help from nuclear reactors!).

It's not just by tinkering at the edges, though; it's about major changes in patterns of consumption and lifestyle.   Given that we have a 'three planet' lifestyle anyway, change is inevitable; we can't go on like this.

On the particular question raised earlier, about standy reserves to keep the lights on when demand exceeeds the immediately available supply, the report acknowledges the limitations of wind turbines for that particular contingency.   It goes into some detail (p63 if you want to check it out) which recommends using stored biogas or syngas (particularly methane created from CO2 and renewably-produced hydrogen) as the reserve.

What a contrast with the stuff the government's doing just now - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and now [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

I'm pretty sure that George Osborne could be described as a climate change denier - he just can't reconcile climate change with his core values. The man is public enemy no 1
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auguste1
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Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeWed Jul 24, 2013 12:12 am

I think you forgot to mention that zero carbon Britain would increase energy bills tenfold. I can't afford them now so how will I afford them in your scenario? Also in your scenario it would save enough CO2 to offset a month of China's increase in CO2. They are opening a coal fired power station every week and will continue to do so for the next 5 yrs at least. Get real and join us in the wonderful world of fuel poverty.
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? - Page 7 Icon_minitimeWed Jul 24, 2013 12:53 am

The Japanese have still got a problem with nuclear...
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