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 Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?

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Bollocks!
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PostSubject: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 30, 2013 5:49 pm

Neither is the Guardian.
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 01, 2013 1:01 am

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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 01, 2013 1:18 pm

Honestly WTR....even by your own standards that one's a bit weak.

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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeSun Feb 03, 2013 12:58 pm

Dr James Lovelock (arch greeny and climate doomsayer) has at least seen the light about industrial wind power stations......This is part of his submission opposing a new Ecotricity turbine in Devon.

""I am an environmentalist and founder member of the Greens but I bow my head in shame at the thought that our original good intentions should have been so misunderstood and misapplied. We never intended a fundamentalist Green movement that rejected all energy sources other than renewable, nor did we expect the Greens to cast aside our priceless ecological heritage because of their failure to understand that the needs of the Earth are not separable from human needs. We need to take care that the spinning windmills do not become like the statues on Easter Island, monuments of a failed civilisation.""

*Ecotricity claims maximum output of 0.5 megawatt. Over time the turbine will not do better than 25 per cent of this. By comparison, Sizewell B produces 4.7 terawatt-hours every year. So Wolfram Alpha tells us than Sizewell B produces as much juice as 5,400 such turbines (and that's before you get into all the other windfarm issues of intermittency etc).
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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeSun Feb 03, 2013 7:49 pm

Oh, and here's the latest output ....essentially the x axis.....for wind power compared to the total.

Not selected by me Peter, just the latest figures.

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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 08, 2013 9:35 pm

The magnificent white elephants still doing a brilliant job of ruining the countryside without actually producing any power.

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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 08, 2013 10:18 pm

Just to point out the wind nutters tell us that we now get 10% of our electricity from wind.....when it blows.

As cane be seen from the graphs - that is total horse shit.

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Peter Goodwin
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 11, 2013 8:13 pm

Jen

This weekend I went by rail from Bristol to Snowdonia. A lovely 227 mile journey, through the Welsh Marches, the upper Severn valley, and the Cambrian coast. Mostly, I just looked out of the window. All the way I didn't notice more than half a dozen wind turbines, and most of them were at 'major port' sites. I don't see the land of industrial-scale onshore wind generation, laying waste to the countryside, that you keep ranting about.

What we did see, even though it was miles away and visibility was poor, was the grey hulk of the Trawsfynydd nuclear power station.
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I'm calling it a power station – but it stopped generating over than twenty years ago. According to the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], 'decommissioning is well under way'. The fuel has been removed from the reactors, and they hope to complete clearance of the reactors themselves, and the rest of site, by round about 2080. Presumably that means that by then the remaining radioactive material will have been moved somewhere (as yet unidentified) for longer term care. A task for my great great great grandchildren, perhaps...?

At least when a turbine's outlived its useful life you can simply remove it – and recycle the parts. It seems to me to be downright immoral to opt for a fuel that produces benefits for the present generation, then leave the burden of risk and debt to future generations.

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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 11, 2013 8:50 pm

""At least when a turbine's outlived its useful life you can simply remove it ""

As you well know Peter that isn't true. The turbine itself maybe, but not the massive concrete blocks on which they stand.

I'm glad you appreciate how wind turbines destroy the environment. Massive parts of it.

I agree the old nuclear power station is not exactly a thing of beauty either.

But it produced 430 MW whatever the weather, and is about the size of maybe two or three 2 MW turbines.

That is 2 MW turbine about 1/5 of the time.

So an old, ineffficient by modern standards, magnox station has a footprint of effectively 1/1000 the size of an equivalent wind power station.

Another good day for wind!

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ff
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 11, 2013 11:22 pm

Quote :
I don't see the land of industrial-scale onshore wind generation, laying waste to the countryside,


Try Scotland! sad
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 8:07 am

Indeed FF.

They have buggered the southern uplands south of Glasgow - turned once beautiful countryside into an industrial wasteland.

Now they are turning their attention to the last unspoilt wilderness in Britain, the Highlands.

Destroying the environment on the altar of environmentalism. You couldn't make it up, but it shows that many greens have a different agenda - they certainly don't give a shit about the environment.
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ff
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 9:55 am

One word- MONEY!
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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 10:06 am

Money for some FF, suckling at the inexhaustable teat of the taxpayer.

But for the greens it is power, influence and their longstanding desire to de-industrialise by increaing energy prices and transfer wealth from the evil capitalist west.
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Peter Goodwin
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 10:29 am

When you two have done with this latest embarrassing round of mutual stroking and fantasist rambling..... will you move on to the fundamental issue about borrowing from future generations?

If you'd rather focus on Scotland instead of Wales, try Dounreay or Hunterston or Chapelcross instead of Trawsfynedd. Or look ahead to Torness or any other future 'decommissioning' and waste storage.

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Peter Goodwin
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 11:23 am

... or, for a right wing Tory free market view of new nuclear, try [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on politics home.
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ff
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 11:35 am

You are talking of only five sites.

If you can, try and imagine 5 million or more (probably need more for the same output) extinct windmills at end-of-life and the resources required to clean up all that poisonous metal and paint: not to mention the concrete bases which any future government would most probably not bother about.
Then there would be thousands of miles of traffic disruption for the poor sods who live near them!

Please let them put a few next to where you live!!! fingers crossed

Also, I can't be 4r5ed to wade through 'stuff' someone has written who cannot spell!
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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 12, 2013 12:30 pm

Peter,

Resorting to insults doesn't help.

How you can use subsidies as an argument against nuclear power when you want and get them for your countryside destroying industrial power stations I do not know.

As ever you simply ignore the massive damage done to the environment by your hideous white elephants.

Yes nuclear power stations are industrial developments too. But they are small. They do not destroy vast swathes of countryside.

Yes decomissioning is currently expensive. It will get cheaper though and the waste is currenty being stored perfectly safely.

Greenies hate the very word nuclear - it is to them more dangerous than anything else. I have no idea why, but that's the way you seem to think. That and "genetic".

Nuclear power is safe and clean and it doesn't destroy the environment. Energy supply is a problem. But the answer for sure isn't to crucify what's left of Britain's green unspoilt places with those monstrosities.
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Peter Goodwin
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 12:47 am

Jen..... Insults? Me? That's a bit thin skinned, from someone who routinely insults someone in almost every post. Sometimes I'm the target of your trademark bile, every time (and there are many, even just on this page) you choose to accuse the Greens of some outlandlishly evil behaviour created out of your own fevered imagination.

No apology there then..
. smile

Me, I quite like subsidies, and taxes for that matter, as a means for the state to regulate economic activity for the benefit of all. I don't share the views held by Mike Weatherly MP – but I thought you might be interested in his perspective which comes, ideologically, from somewhere near you. I take it that, unlike FF, you can cope with the US spelling of 'skeptic'?

Personally I'd be quite happy with the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] drawn (though for other reasons) by another Brighton MP, Caroline Lucas.... but I don't suppose her thoughts would cut much ice with you because you have no faith in the messenger.

There are, of course, plenty of other good reasons not to build new nuclear power stations. There's the cost, the concentration of power, the reliance on imported fuel, the risk of accident/leakage, the potential for terrorist attack, the danger of nuclear materials falling into the wrong hands, nuclear proliferation. In each case, the consequences of something going wrong are potentially catastrophic. Even a 'routine' breakdown takes out a huge chunk of generating capacity. But I wasn't talking about any of those things above.... just the principle of us getting, and using, the electricity now while leaving the obligation to clear up and keep the radioactive waste safe, to many future generations – generations who don't get any of the benefits.

That seems morally very wrong to me.

Now, wind farms. I started by remarking how few turbines I'd seen on a long rural rail journey – you and FF seem to think I must have had my eyes shut. Then you (both?) used a ploy common among those who want to discredit any attempt to harness the energy from the wind that blows across the country, by portraying turbines as 'countryside destroying industrial power stations' destroying 'vast swathes of countryside' while covering the country with concrete. It's a completely trumped up charge, of course, relying on the false premise that a very large number of turbines would be needed to gather as much energy as is produced by a nuclear building programme.

Whoever would even consider turbines on that scale? Why must wind capacity equal potential nuclear capacity? It's all about as valid as the 'straw man' claim that when the wind's not blowing, the lights will go out.

Truth is, no-one pretends for a moment that we can rely on wind for all our energy needs – that would be stupid. Wind can and should be a significant part of a big low carbon renewable energy portfolio, though.... especially as more efficient means of storing the energy can be found, so that supply can be matched to fluctuating demand (as is also the problem for nuclear, of course).

My guess is that means hydrogen; but it's a good excuse to show another photo taken not far from the Trawsfynnydd shot, and, like that one, also from the Ffestiniog Railway train – it's the power station and lower reservoir of the Ffestiniog pumped storage scheme. Commissioned in 1963, according to Wikipedia, and still going strong
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ff
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 9:56 am

I've seen that many times, it's nowhere near as ugly as one 'wind'mill!
Doesn't tower over the skyline like a 3-legged penis......

Subsidize? threaten

Let's get crackin' and start up frackin'. thumbup
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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 11:28 am

Peter,

Let's start at the begining. I'm not thin skinned, that was merely an observation. You can say what you like to/about me. I believe in free speech. Neither do I insult nearly everyone in every post but let's not let the facts get in the way shall we?

""Me, I quite like subsidies, and taxes for that matter, as a means for the state to regulate economic activity for the benefit of all."". Indeed you do. As I said the greens are merely extreme lefties in green drag. You believe the state should take what I earn and spend it how it likes not how I like. I've been saying that for ages. Thisis one reason they latched onto AGW in the first place. It allows state control. "Do this or the planet dies".

That said, only an extreme anarchist would say there was no role whatsoever for the state. I accept that the state has an interest in energy supplies.

If you are terrified of all things atomic then you would think there are good reasons not to build nuclear. I am not. Far fewer people have ever died in the nuclear industry compared to coal and oil. That is just a fact. Nuclear plants release less radiation than coal fired power stations in fact. When Sellafield closed down the Calder Hall reactors they had to build a new fossil fueled power station.They couldn't put it within the site boundary as IT would increase their radioactive emissions too much.

Of course future generations will have to deal with some of the waste. But to say they get no benefit is bollocks. Like saying we got no benefit from the industrial revolution happening here in the UK. Technology will deal with the problem as it always does. Necessity is the mother of invention.

"" I started by remarking how few turbines I'd seen on a long rural rail journey – you and FF seem to think I must have had my eyes shut. "" No, I believe you Peter. Maybe the railway line happens to miss most of them?

""by portraying turbines as 'countryside destroying industrial power stations' destroying 'vast swathes of countryside' while covering the country with concrete. It's a completely trumped up charge, of course, relying on the false premise that a very large number of turbines would be needed to gather as much energy as is produced by a nuclear building programme.

Whoever would even consider turbines on that scale? ""

That is exactly what they are and exactly what they do. Drive up the M74 and see what they've done to Southern Scotland. Look what they are about to do to the Carlisle area. Thank God the complete concreting of the Isle Of Lewis was rejected. It would be a crime against humanity to go ahead with that scheme -but I bet you greenies were all in favour.

You greenies want them and the government is doing just that. It beggars belief you are saying anything different. This blight is spreading and it is spreading fast.

If, you don't want that many turbines then why have any? What's the point if they contribute so little as they do now? Saying that you are essentially admitting that they do damage huge areas for little benefit and that you want them as a token, not to produce meaningful energy.
A sacrifice dare I say, an offering, an oblation. I am astounded you wish to inflict such damage on rural Britain for little benefit.

"" Wind can and should be a significant part of a big low carbon renewable energy portfolio, though.... especially as more efficient means of storing the energy can be found, so that supply can be matched to fluctuating demand (as is also the problem for nuclear, of course).""

Ah, so you DO want them to litter every once rural landscape then? Because that's what that will take. As to storage? Nuclear is ideal base load generation. Why does it need storage? Some years ago practically all our evening (off peak economy 7 as it used to be) was nuclear.

There is no need for storage of wind energy surely as it never produces anywhere near enough let alone too much.

That particular pumped storage facility blends in reasonably well, but as FF point out, it is tiny compared a wind power station.

Just for you, the latest figures available. I haven't looked yet and have no idea how windy it has been.

Just done the cut and paste. Quite a good output compared to usual Peter. You must be very pleased.

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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 12:35 pm

It strikes me that on the above you may not be able to actually see any contribution to power generation we are getting from wind turbines.

Some people might think it is the obvious line. No, that is the total power generated.

So I've magnified the first part where wind does best in the period so we can all see that the desecration of our green and pleasant land has been pointless.

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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 12:47 pm

I'm not going to get involved in this as I suspect I would end up arguing with both of you! I suspect there is a role for both nuclear and renewables. I think one of the mistakes made in recent decades has been to stall research into nuclear as it seems that issues of waste are potentially addressable with the right sort of reactor technology. Unfortunately, from what I gather these are still at prototype rather than proven deployment stage.

As far as wind output is concerned, I am not sure where your graphs are coming from Jen but [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] provides close to real time monitoring of output and shows wind in a slightly more favourable light. I believe much of the planned offshore capacity has not come online yet. Intermittency and storage are issues. Storage is something that will need a solution anyway as nuclear is very inflexible.



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Jen
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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 12:53 pm

Oxford university Spog. It gives essentially the same info as your site [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Your site seems to be updated more often. Good site actually.

I am not totally against renewables either. I am against environmentally unfriendly renewables like wind power.

I see wind is doing quite well as we speak. 7 1/4 %.

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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 1:14 pm

Plastic clips are the bane of my life.

Spog,

I detest wind power stations because they produce little power intermittently for the vast areas they destroy. I am not against alternative energy sources. Not because I give a toss about CO2 emissions - that bogey man is beginning to fade now anyway as the climate scares fail to materialise.

But I am genuinely surprised that people who 20 odd years ago were campaigning against genuine envoronmental damage - polluted and dead rivers, uncontrolled development on rural land, over-use of pesticides etc etc - are now campaigning FOR the destruction of the environment because they have elevated one (percieved) danger above all else.

I guess the ultimate scare and the fact that many listened to them means they have influence and power and have no wish to let it go. That's the genuine ones - and to be honest I'm sure Peter is a genuine one.

The rest of course are bandwagon jumping ex-communists and anti-capitalists.



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PostSubject: Re: Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic?   Global warming. Is it happening? If so, is it anthropogenic? Icon_minitimeWed Feb 13, 2013 6:48 pm

In fact Spog, I like your live energy site so much I shall adopt it - posting a comment (if I remember).

The graphs aren't as nice and big but the fact it is up to date is excellent.

I see wind is having a great day up to 7.8 % now.
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